Cashman needs to pursue moving ARod

Alex would be more comfortable in Miami

Although both Cashman & Girardi have stated that Alex is the Yankees 3B in 2013 and they have no plans to pursue a trade, they would be foolish to not explore every opportunity to move him.  We all know the obstacles in place to move Alex, the 5 yrs @ $114 Million remaining on his deal, the no-trade clause and his decline at the age of 37.  However, if anything has been proven over the last year in MLB, it’s that any player can be traded regardless of the obstacles.

This is not meant to be a typical, blame all of the Yankees problems on ARod piece.  Alex is still an above average player in the regular season and has value going forward.  So why should the Yankees trade him? Well, there are 3 major motivations for the Yankees to pursue a trade:

  1. The Money - In years past, it really wouldn’t matter what ARod made as the Yankee payroll was routinely $210-225 Million.  However, with Hal dead serious about reducing the payroll to get under the $189M Luxury Tax threshold,  the ARod deal is the biggest albatross.  Although he will make less in the latter years of the deal, he will still count $27.5M towards the Cap every year due to the Annual Average Value and that amount will balloon to $33.5M in the years he hits his milestones.  That first milestone is likely to be hit in 2013 as he needs 13 HRs to tie Willie Mays.
  2. Derek Jeter - We don’t know how Jeter will recover from his broken ankle or how it will affect his already declining range at SS.  I’m not one who thinks Jeters range kills the team but the facts are he will have to play fewer games at SS in 2013 and beyond.  With Derek needing more time at DH in coming years, can the team really afford to have 2 players in their late 30′s that need extensive DH time?
  3. The Post-season - I really thought Alex lifted an enormous monkey off his back with his performance in the 2009 Playoffs when he helped lead the team to the WS.  However, since then he has been totally invisible in the post-season for the last 3 years. Since 2009, he is 12 for 75 (.160 BA) with 0 HRs and only 2 Doubles for an anemic .448 OPS and 24 StrikeOuts.   In his Yankee career, he has had 2 good post-seasons, 1 meh and 5 complete debacles.  For a team that goes to the post-season nearly every yr, they need better than that and it is clear that Alex presses during the post-season.

With the above demerits, why would any team want to trade for ARod? Well, let’s look at the motivations for a team like Miami.  The money is definitely an issue and the Yanks would have to take back a big salary, eat money and perhaps sweeten the pot with another good player.  But Miami wouldn’t have the same financial issues as the Yankees do.  For starters, the Luxury Tax is not an issue for them so the fact that Alex’ AAV is higher than his actual paycheck is meaningless to them.  The fact that his salary drops to $20-21M the final 3 years is advantageous to Florida.  The other big detriment to the Yankees is also meaningless to Miami – the post-season performance.  Miami was in last place in 2012 and  they would be happy just to make it to the post-season in the next few years.

The 3 major reasons Miami would be interested in Alex are the following:

  1. Attendance/Exposure - Miami just opened their new stadium in 2012 and have been looking for Latino box office draws to create a buzz and fill seats.  If anything, Alex is interesting and always creates a huge media buzz.  Miami would definitely benefit from the added exposure and the fact that Alex is aa Miami-native with deep ties to the community is a huge factor for them.  Miami tried to sign Albert Pujols in FA as a big Latin draw but failed, they signed Jose Reyes for the same reason.  Alex could play the role Pujols was intended to play in the community.  Chasing down some HR landmarks may also create a buzz in Miami where it’s almost hum-drum in drama-filled NY.
  2. Leadership -  Despite his flaws, Alex has become a solid leader for younger players and youn Latin players specifically.  With Florida building with a young club, ARod could be an important force in the clubhouse to show the young players how to work hard and what is required to succeed.  In NY, he’s always in the shadow of Jeter but in Miami – his town, his home – he could be in charge.
  3. Performance - Like Cashman said, Alex is still an above-average 3B.  Although his #s are in decline, he still had a 112 OPS+ in his worse season of his career in 2012.  If healthy and rejuvenated in a new setting, he could be a good complement in their lineup to young stud Giancarlo Stanton.

Miami has 2 high-priced, long-term commitments on their books after trading Heath Bell.  Both players have heavily back-loaded contracts.  The first – Jose Reyes – is highly unlikely to be moved as he’s still young, productive and dynamic.  the 2nd player is Mark Buehrle who may be a candidate for the Yanks to take back in an ARod deal.  Buehrle made just $6M in 2012 but his salary jumps to $11M in 2013 , then to $18 & $19M in the final 2 seasons.  To me, that means Miami intends to trade him in those latter years.  He has 3 yrs @ $48M left on his deal and he’s still a solid starter with proven success in the A.L.  The Yanks could take him back, eat some money and maybe throw Miami a player to make the deal even.  It could be done.

The last impediment of such a deal is ARod and his no-trade clause.  But after being embarrassed by the club in the Playoffs and having lukewarm at best support from the NY fans, I think Alex would jump at the chance to go to Miami – his hometown, with a chance to start over and without the glaring spotlight of the NY media and constant post-season pressure.

What do you think? Is a trade possible and should the Yankees pursue it or just sit back and listen like Cashman says?  Cashman has always been a very stealth operator who feeds the media a lot of mis-information.  I have to believe he will explore every option to deal ARod this Winter because of the reasons above.

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About fishjam25

Was a 4-yr Pitcher and Communications Major at Seton Hall University in the 90s. His knowledge & opinion of the game comes from his background as a player and ardent lifetime Yankee fan. However, Fishjam also incorporates sabermetrics and statistical support to form a well-rounded view of the game.

Posted on October 25, 2012, in Analysis, Hot Stove, No Category, Personal Opinion, Player Analysis and tagged , , . Bookmark the permalink. 161 Comments.

  1. Fish if they trade ARod he still counts as part of the payroll and counts towards the luxury tax so it really doesn’t help them at all on that front. If he didn’t count towards that I would be all for that, but since he does the only reason they should trade him is if the want to get rid of the distraction. My ideal situation is that they trade for Headley and move Arod to mostly DH duties. If they trade him they must find an adequate replacement, as Arod was an above average 3B durng the regualr season.

  2. What I meant to say was that however much they are paying Arod counts on their payroll and towards the tax regardless where he plays. I’m assuming they will have to pay him most of it for a trade to be made.

    • MATT B – I don’t think the yanks would have to eat most of the deal to move Alex. Taking back a bad contract like Buehrle’s, throwing in $25M and throwing in some talent like a Hughes, Joba, etc should be plenty. I broke down what the savings against the Luxury tax could mean below in a repsonse to Hankies. They could reduce their Luxury Tax burden on ARod from $149.5M over the next 5 years to $77M.

      From Florida’s standpoint, they pay an additional $49 Million over 5 years than they were due to pay Buehrle but they get ARod for 5 years as well as a young starter in Hughes to replace Buehrle and/or a young closer in Joba.

  3. Fish – who was the first on YFU to float the idea of getting rid of Alex……even though most thought it wasn’t even worth discussion?

  4. Fish – The big thing for me is how will the money going from the Yankees to another team will be accounted for with regard to the tax threshold. If it is all accounted for in year one then great. Is it accounted for in the year the Yankees pay it also great.

    Next the Yankees will likely pick up Beuhrle’s 4 million deferred signing bonus so the total would be 52 million.

    I agree with you that at least Hughes plus another pitcher like Warren would have to go as well.

    For Miami they would benefit from Arod tying Mays and then 700 and Ruth plus 3000 hits and 2000 rbi and 2000 runs scored in his first 3 years.

    Buehrle would be a nice asset to pick up as he could really help the Yankees over the next three seasons.

    The biggest plus for Alex and the Yankees is the fresh start for both. No more living with past failures could be the best thing to happen for all concerned.

    I hope it happens and then Cano goes next.

    • Hankies – Yes, that is a tough question and I don’t think anyone really knows the true answer of how the money would be accounted for. In an ideal world, let’s say the yanks trade ARod and $25M for Buehrle. If you count Buehrle’s signing bonus, the Yanks would be paying $77M in actual salary (52M + 25m for ARod) as oppossed to $126M for Alex ($114M in salary + 12M in incentives) for a net savings of $49M in salaries.

      From an accounting and Luxury tax point of view the ideal thing for the yanks is to pay $25M of ARod’s salary in 2013 and that’s it. That way, they’d take the $25M hit against the tax in 2013 and have no more liability for Alex beyond that. That would be perfect but who knows if it’s permissable. They may have to ammoritize the $25M over the 5 years counting $5M each season. If you count Buehrle as a 3yr-$52M deal he counts $17.3M in AAV for LTax purposes. That would make the team’s LTax burden for Buehrle & ARod over the 5 years as follows:

      2013: 17.3 + 5 = 22.3
      2014: 17.3 + 5 = 22.3
      2015: 17.3 + 5 = 22.3
      2016: 5
      2017: 5
      TOTAL: 52 + 25 = 77M

      That would be quite a bit of savings since if you keep ARod he will count $27.5M in all 5 years PLUS an extra $6M when when he passes Mays (likely 2013) and Ruth for a grand total of $149.5M against the Tax for the next 5 yrs. All told, you are looking at $72.5M saved against the LT over the 5 years. That’s an enormous savings and it would be even more since you are gaining Buehrle. Buehrle’s presence means you could afford to let go of another starting pitcher such as Hughes or later Pettite or Kuroda.

      • Fish – I would pay 50 million next year plus take back Buehrle just to be done with him if all the money would be taxed just next year. If the money is taxed only in the year given then year 1 along with 4 and 5 work too.

  5. Getting rid of our best player and one of the best in baseball? Don’t understand pushing for it.

    • It’s very easy to see…He and Boras will try to hold the Yankees hostage. Cano over the next 4-5 years is fine but beyond that it’s just more of the same crap we have now. Follow the Cardinals plan and let Cano go.

      • I understand it from a business perspective……but it’s not a definite that they won’t meet a mutually acceptable deal that benefits both parties. I’d rather root for that to happen, then just say now, let him go. I want to watch him play every day …he’s an amazing athlete.

        • I love Cano but if he wants an A-Rod contract i can’t see the Yankees giving another one of those out.

          • True dat……and as a Cano fan…..I wouldn’t now be saying let’s get rid of Cano……I like watching and rooting for him too much to do that.

            • i agree. he is fun to watch. only annoying part is him not running out hard every time.

              • Yeah….like with all players you gotta take some of the bad with the good.

                Cano’s easy going style that allows him to play so smoothly and effortlessly , also reveals itself negatively when not running hard to first.

                He has other faults too, like lack of focus in the field leading to sloppy errors, bad base running, and lack of discipline at the plate.

                But balance that with the fact that he may be the most naturally gifted baseball player our generation has ever seen….

        • If the Yankees want to renew their brand and create new exciting times a complete break from the past just might be best.

          Ballpark an I were talking about what to do if the worst happens.

          CC hurt
          Andy retires
          Kuroda retires remember his father in law is a billionaire.
          Mo retires
          Soriano opts out
          Swisher is gone
          Ichiro signs elsewhere

          If all goes bad then what do you have left?

          I have no issue at all in using the potential money going to Cano to buy more pitching plus getting something good in return.

          There are so many moving pieces to this off season that need figuring out.

          Position player side example…

          C McCann comes to NY for Granderson/Romine
          1 Tex
          2 Joseph/Nix
          SS Jeter/Nunez
          3 Adams/Chavez
          Lf Ichiro
          Cf Gardner
          Rf Beltran/Mustelier

          • McCann is gonna start the season on the DL right? But i do like him alot.

            • McCaan had some horrible numbers this year…… .399 slugging %. 87ops+. 230 BA

              Was he playing hurt? If not i wouldn’t touch him.

              • McCann just had shoulder surgery. It was more extensive then first thought but he should be ready for spring training of shortly after. He may be more of a DH then catcher but should catch more and more as the season wears on.

                When Ballpark an I were chatting 2 ideas came to us. First if the Yankees need pitching would you trade him for Lincecum? Second you could maybe ask the Nat’s or another team for high level almost ready prospects. Would Rendon plus work?

            • Trading Cano because he doesn’t run hard is silly. Nobody takes more extra BP than him according to the reporters.

          • I hear you Hank, and you’re not wrong……I just don’t see Yankee baseball from a business perspective , like you do, I see it more from a fan perspective. So I can’t go around hypothesizing that my favorite players should be moved.

            • Being a fan makes me want Cano but reality might be different. I think Joseph can be a .280+, .350+, with 15+ home runs so he could become Cano lite which is still well above MLB average for a second baseman. There is risk in doing so but so would giving a guy an 8-10 year extension.

              • Free, I agree with you, the Yanks have 2 good young infielders in Joseph and Adams, you can’t give Cano more than 6 years.

          • Free…
            I like your position player line-up but, I also think it could be like this;

            Granderson/Cano are trade bait for pitching or position players.

            C-Romine/Martin
            1-Tex
            2-Joseph/Nix
            SS-Jeter/Nunez
            3-A-Rod/Adams
            Lf-Ichiro
            Cf-Gardner
            Rf-Beltran/Mustelier

            I think trading Granderson and Romine for McCann is to much talent for one guy.
            Granderson for McCann, ok! 30-40 HR guys are always gone be on GM’s wish list.
            If A-Rod can’t be traded he is at 3rd. I would like to see what Turley can do in spring training!

            • I meant just trade Granderson for MaCann not both. I could see the trade expanded to include Romine if Gilmartin came back as well.

              Russell Martin frankly I never want to see in pinstripes again.

              Arod an the Yankees both need a fresh start so if he’s goes it’s good.

              McCann if the Yankees got him I hope they would resign him for multiple years. He has a very good left handed bat that also would work as a DH.

              My entire idea was to be able to put a full veteran team on the field if you wanted to any given day but also had the flexibility to put 5 youngsters on the field as well.

              • Free…
                I see, Granderson for McCann, I can see that! Martin would be gone for sure than!
                A-Rod traded, I have not been against that at all, the problem is the money we will have to pick-up will be on the books. If they can do it…I agree, new beginning.
                The idea of flexibility is great and will have to be given more thought by Cashman than just lip service.
                A couple of the guys you picked from the farm can hold the fort until a couple of the better players show up…in a years or two. Although, I don’t understand why they have to wait until they are 25 before they are given a chance in the bigs? If a guy is playing real well at AA, or AAA he will play better in the show, unless he has big holes in his swing.
                I think we have been trying to get flexibility for a few years, we discussed it many times before…if my memory is right.

                • Granderson led the league in both runs scored and runs batted in. He has hit more hrs than any other player in the AL over the last 3 years. He can run and field.

                  Yeah he sucked in the playoffs and struck out to much this season. But his production will need to be replaced by more than McCaan. We get a CF that has Grandy production numbers than I’m ok with McCaan over Martin.

      • Free, it might be better to pick up his option and trade him so we can get something for him, if we know we can’t sign him.

  6. Fish …. I love the picture on your post…Aroid grimacing , looking back at the big screen or up into the sky, after another strikeout……how many times havenwe seen that?

  7. Free,Fatboy,Twasp,and anyone else, I’m listening to the top radio show host in the last 25 years on WFAN, and he just said that the short seris is random. At least somebody knows what their talking about.

  8. Frances is a pompous ass. Never admits he’s wrong……sound familiar?

  9. Cano has the most raw talent the Yankees have had since Mickey Mantle……enjoy him……I hope he doesn’t leave…but if some other team is crazy enough to offer eight to ten years hes probably gone.

    • Cano isn’t the reason I am a Yankees fan and likely for most fans as well so in the grand scheme of things it just does not matter if he stays or goes.

      • Well thats true Hank…… I will remain a Yankee fan regardless. But I do think it will matter to many fans if Cano goes. And by matter I mean have a feeling about it.

        • I think you are overstating things here. No one can understand him when he speaks so will they miss him yes in the beginning but if Joseph shows well the fans will easily move on.

  10. I hope they trade A-Rod, but then again, do we know exactly who will play third for us? Headley is young enough that San Diego says he’s their franchise player and will build around him for the next couple of years. Nuney can’t start just yet in my opinion, and banking on minor leaguers to step up is a bit of a stretch.

    I’d say hold on to Alex fr one more year, and hey, maybe he’ll hit .280, crush 20 homers, and drive in 80 RBIs. It could drive his value up even more if the Yankees want to trade him next winter. Though you could counter with “what if he hits .250 with 10 home runs and misses 80 games.” But I have a feeling no matter where A-Rod plays he will play more determined than ever to get back and be the player he should be at this age.

    • Headley? That ship sailed.

    • Brian – Waiting a yearmight make it easier or it might make it harder as you said. Not only could Alex play worse, but the window on trading him to Miami may close. If Miami finds another centerpiece player in the meantime, they may not want Alex anymore.

      Regarding headley, he’s a stud. Several of us have wanted the Yankees to target him for the last 2+ years. Back then he was attainable and at a very reasonable price. However, now, he’d cost a ton since he had his breakout year.He hit over 30 HRs and led the NL in RBIs playing in the hardest park to hit in MLB. the Yanks blew their opportunity to get him.

      I don’t think it’s a stretch to give Adams part of the 3B job. he’s finally 100% healthy at 25 yrs old and he’s ready. Sign a veteran caddy/platoon partner like Chavez and you are set. The only way this team starts to get younger is by givving opportunities to players in their system. the 2 hitters who have earned a good long look and opportunity for 2013 are David Adams and Corban Joseph.

  11. Whether it’s a combination of taking back a back-loaded deal from the Marlins or just straight dumping Arod and paying 95% of the contract the Yankees are going to bite a big bullet on this one. More importantly, they should bite the bullet.

    I don’t hate Arod.

    I don’t hold it against him for signing the deal (I hold it against that idiot Hankenstein for giving it to him).

    But it is time to move on.

    Then they need to let Swisher walk, trade Granderson to some team that is blinded by his HR numbers and doesn’t see the horrible defensive reads he gets or seem to mind the 200 K’s per year.

    Re-sign Ichiro (or go after a Cody Ross/Ryan Ludwick type of bat), shift Gardner to CF, platoon Nunez & Dickerson in LF.

    Maybe sign Youkilis for 3B or explore a trade for someone like Chase Headley.

    • Some interesting ideas DJ. Swisher gone is a definite and I support the Granderson move IF we get something good in return. If not, I’d move him to LF and keep him for the season. Joel Sherman compared trading granderson to the Mets trading a half year of Beltran in 2011. If the Yanks could get a very strong pitching prospect like the Mets got in Wheeler or a young MLB-ready OF I’d do it.

      Nunez to LF is interesting but I’d like to give him 1 full year of just playing SS before giving up on him there.

      Unfortunately, I think they missed the boat on Headley. The time to strike was last year on him, now after a career yr he’d cost a fortune. I might give Youk a look if he’s take a reasonable deal. He was a much better hitter after the trade to Chicago. iI’d like to try David Adams at 3B with a veteran like Chavez as a platoon partner/insurance. Scutaro would be interesting but he’ll be overpaid based on his 2nd half.

      Wouldn’t it be great if they could move Tex to 3B and find a mashing 1B like Detroit did. If Cabrera’s big ass can play 3B, Tex can right? lol. Before everyone jumps on me, it was just a day-dream, I know it would never happen. Tex hasn’t played 3B since his rookie year.

  12. Sign Youkilis? Say whaaaaaaat?

    • How about trading for Martin Prado from Atlanta? he has 1 yr left til FA and will probably make about $7M in arbitration. He’s a .300 hitter with 40+ Doubles, 10-15 HRs, low K rate, 17 SBs, plays multiple positions. He may be another guy who they missed the boat on. the Braves were looking to move him last winter after his poor 2011. But after a strong 2012 and with Chipper retiring, he may not be available.

      • I like Matt Carpenter of the Cardinals much more then Prado.

        • I like Carpenter too but I mentioned Prado because he may be available. I suppose STL could entertain dealing Carpenter since they have so many quality hitters but he’s young, cheap and versatile. The Cards seem so deep and have a couple of really good hitters still in the monors so what could the Yanks offer them? I suppose if STL likes Nunez as a 2B or SS that could be a possibility since they could use an upgrade in the Middle Infield. If not maybe they’d like Hughes or Phelps since Lohse is a FA and Garcia has a bad shoulder.

          • Fish – I want nothing to do with players approaching free agency unless they’re a starting pitcher. Prado is a nice player but does not fit in with our needs like Carpenter can.

            I would love Matt Carpenter but to get him Nunez most likely would have to go in a trade. The Yankees can’t do that unless they bring in someone to play SS in case Jeter can’t for next year and going forward for when Jeter is gone.

            This is why I think it’s best to trade Cano for that guy who can play SS going forward. I like Espinosa of the Nat’s as one option. If the Yankees could get Espy plus prospects I hope they would consider doing so.

    • Youkilis wouldn’t be a terrible alternative to A-Rod if the Yankees could trade A-Rod. I don’t think that he will get too much money/years this offseason.

      • Bertin….good evening, and welcome to YFU. Two points for you….Youkilis: Once that beard thing is shaved off, he would become a fan favorite with the ladies. Second, I think Jeter should learn how to switch hit this spring. After the ankle operation, if he bats left….he will be faster out of the box. What do you think?

        • To the best of my knowledge, I am not aware of any professional baseball player who has ever learned to switch-hit in their late 30s. As long as Jeter is able to hit towards RF as well as he does, I am not that concerned with how fast he is out of the box. The guy who concerns me more in that area is Brett Gardner, who does not seem to get as many infield hits as he did when he first started playing. He is not significantly older and has not suffered any injuries that would have affected his speed. The only difference is the amount of effort that he is putting into running out ground balls.

          • Bertin Lefkovic………..good morning urban blogger. Good points lets look at two?…Derek Jeter, of course he can learn to switch hit in spring training. Or, stay behind in Tampa, with Kevin Long…until he gets it. Speaking of Kevin…Kevin Youklis without that beard thing, will have the Yankee girls in the palm of his hand. The next Kevin Maas!…..Finally, Gardner…when he starts playing along side Josh Hamilton……………watch out, my brother!

            • 1. it takes a lot longer than spring training to fine craft switch hitting it takes many years to get it right. So that won’t happen.

              2. Yankees are trying to get below 189 mil for 2014 no way a huge contract like Hamilton is coming to the Yankees.

            • Patrick, that Jeter switch hitting is completely off the wall.What caused these hallucinations???That post is just rediculous.
              Patick you can do better or the Hanky guy will be all over you.lol…….. l!!!!!!!!!

              • morning B.P. i’m just hoping for a Giants W.S. sweep so the real off-season begins.

                • Hey MATT,HOW’S IT GOING?
                  This could and should be a very intresting winter! Yanks with so many ?marks.
                  Team only has a few definites going into next season.
                  Players that are solid;
                  1B-Tex…CF-Gardner…LF- Granderson…RF-Ichiro.
                  Bullpen is solid with some depth,minus a Closer.
                  PLAYERS AND POSITIONS WITH ?’S ;
                  AROD…Cano+Boras….
                  Surgery to Jeter and CC…NEVER GOOD
                  No 2 or 3 in the rotation.Nova regressed,Hughes needs to be traded while he has some value.
                  Phelps has alot to prove.
                  No catcher
                  No closer
                  No quality bat to DH

        • Patrick, I have been a switch hitter for all of my baseball life of about 45 years. Many switch hitters give it up after a while because it is not natural and damn hard to do well…unless one is ambidextrous.
          Going from my ankle break of a few years ago; unless there are structural damage, he may have a twinge every so often and maybe some stiffness but nothing more.
          Hopefully he will have no problems.

  13. Yankees should not move A-Rod! They should look in to trading Granderson!!!!

  14. Fish – this is one time we disagree ….Grandy can play plus baseball.

    I know about the Ks and poor routes….but in my mind they are easily balanced by the following :

    -When his OBP is at .360, and possessing his speed, he can be an elite table setter.
    -I’m starting to believe the sabermetricians thatnsay a k is no big deal as it no worse than the ground out nor any other out. And produvtive outs lost are insignificant in total years scoring in my book
    - defensively for every misread, most he adjusts because of his speed and makes the catch
    - the few he misses are easily balanced by his great plays (which there are quite a few)
    – the dude can be very productive over a long season……power power power…… 40hrs and 100rbis a year AND leading the league in scoring. That’s some heavy stuff that Melky could have never done.

    Now it’s easy to be in the negative review mode after his horrible playoffs …but who didn’t have a tough time with Detrits pitching?

    • Trade him and never look back!

    • Twasp – Grandy does have value, there is no doubt about it. The question is, are you willing to sign him for a big 4-5 year contract after this season when he’s a FA? If the answer is no which i suspect, it’s wise to see what we can get for him now. I don’t say he HAS to go, in fact I’d keep him as a LF if they can’t find a good deal for him.

      Now to address each of your points:

      1- yes, if he had a .360 OBP with speed he’d be a great tablesetter but he wasn’t close to that in 2012. His OBP fell to .319 and his SBs fell from 25 to 10

      2- a K is no big deal much of the time but when you have a team full of guys that K a lot and can’t move runners it makes a difference. And Grandy striking out more than 30% of the time is ridiculous. And considering that rate was closer to 40% in the 2nd half is a huge red flag

      3/4 – He is athletic to make a lot of plays but overall is a below average CF. And in the OF, if you don’t get to a ball it’s extra bases. We have a better defensive CF in our own OF.

      5- His HRs do make him productive which is why he has value and if he can get back to his 2011 ways he’s an extremley valuable player. But he was absolutely brutal in 2012. His OPS dropped over 100 points, his Doubles, Triples & SBs disappeared.

      And it’s not really an indictment of Granderson per se, but the Yanks have to change up their style with all these low BA,, high K, dead-pull HR hitters. They are too easy to pitch to, too easy to defend with shifts and only live on pitcher’s mistakes. Since Tex can’t be moved, maybe they can find a good deal for Curtis. If not, keep him for a year.

      • Fish …Let me counterpoint if you will

        1. He has had 3 .360 obp years and as recent as last year…..so I won’t write him off on doing that again because of this year.

        2. As long along as he is producing runs , I honestly don’t care if he strikes out 30 or 40 % of the time. what was MM strike out ratio? If it is indicative of future play because of eye issues than I care.

        3. Agree that Gardner is a better CFer but I wouldn’t classify Grandy as below avg. Even though I know he has bad UZR scores. Like with Tex, I’ll go with my eyes on this.

        5. I think this year was an aberration and if you look at previous years he has a tendency to follow a mediocre year after a great year. And make no mistake about it last year was a great year. That too many of the fans didn’t appreciate or have forgotten about too soon.

        I didn’t and don’t believe he should not be traded……if the right deal comes along….I just see too many fans turning against him and possibly underestimating his talent.

        • 1 – His OBP the last 4 yrs were .327, .324, .364 & .319. Which is the outlier?

          2 – If he’s creating runs, Ks don’t matter AS MUCH. His RC+ was solid at 116 so he does create some runs with the long ball. However, when you have several players in a lineup that can’t put the bat on the ball in a big situation, K’s do hurt. We saw this far too much from the yankees this yr.

          3 – My eyes tell me he’s below average compared to the rest of the CFs in baseball. grandy has good straight-line speed and good hands so he can make the play when he gets there. But, he makes terrible reads off the bat, takes terrible angles to the ball and his arm his below average. 2 goods (not greats), 2 terribles (among the worst in the game)and 1 below average = below average in my book.

          4 – I give him full credit for his excellent 2011. He was a tremendous offensive force. But his numbers fell precipitously in every category except for HRs. I like to look at the last 3 years of a player’s career. I see 1 great year and 2 disapointing years. If you go back a 4th yr, another bad yr. I do think he can improve in 2013 but don’t know how much. And since I don’t see him coming back in 2014, let’s see if there is something good out there we can get for him. If not, I have no problem keeping him and taking the draft pick in 2014 when he leaves.

        • Agree with the trade rationale……disagreement is with the value assessment…..

          1. I only go back 4 years if I think the player is on the otherwise of midnight…..his .360;s earlier have more weight for me than you. I think he could easily repeat it. ( if he wants too, I think the team strategy was power, and it hurt him)

          2. I don’t blame Grandy because the rest of the team was built simarly. And my analysis was independent of the team and trade …it was just about how we assess his talent.

          3. I see the bad reads but no more than your other average fielders and I see enough athleticism to balance them to finish at average.

          4. Yeah he dropped off but it was a fantastic year, and he’s not a MVP candidate player yearly. But I think every once and a while he can be. And that’s extreme talent.

          To summarize my disagreement is not with your trade rationale…and maybe not with your total value assessment either……my disagreement is more with a growing overdisbarragement of his skills I see in the posts everywhere.

  15. Trade him for equal or better value……..I’m not that sure that most fans or CashMan for that matter are sophisticated enough to look past the Ks and determine what is better value.

  16. Yes he can’t move runners and sac fly them but if he is getting his 100/100 a different way that’s all that counts.

    A guy who finishes 3rd in MVP voting is far from a joke.

    I know where your opinion stems from, the trade and the ridicule you took from people here. Your still validating you were right by putting down Grandy. Not necessary, I think it wasn’t a great trade too, but that won’t stop me from appreciating Grandys obvious talents.

  17. Let’s see if Cashman can reconstruct the team like Saybean did with the Giants. Posey is the only starter left from 2010, great job.

  18. if you guys havent noticed there are more and more guys who K in MLB each year and GMs and managers dont care. Its becoming more of the norm. If you have a high OBP and K some I don’t care.

    • That being said they should try to trade Grandy but if he comes back as like the 6th hitter in the lineup it’s not the end of the world. I will take 40 HR’s from my 6th hitter any day of the week.

      • Matt b…..you are smarter than you think.

        The reason GMs and mgrs an sabermetricians believe that because if you get on base a lot and you drive home runs with a high slugging % you are a double threat…..scoring runs and driving in runs….tremendous production.

        Yes trade him if you can get better value, but appreciate him enough to realize he can be a tremendous asset not a scrub the way some are talking about him.

  19. Trade A-Rod and CC Sabathia to the Dodgers for Carl Crawford and Mark Buehrle (who comes to the Dodgers from the Marlins for prospects). Trade Robinson Cano, Curtis Granderson, and Eduardo Nunez to the Rangers for Ian Kinsler, Elvis Andrus, and Michael Young. Resign Ichiro Suzuki, Raul Ibanez, Eric Chavez, Russell Martin, Andy Pettitte, Mariano Rivera, and Hiroki Kuroda to one-year deals with team option. Let Nick Swisher and Rafael Soriano leave via free agency. Move Derek Jeter to 3B and Brett Gardner to CF.

  20. All fans have been saying all year is how this team is swinging for the HR and not taking what is given them by the pitchers. We need players that know how to move players over and bring them in, without a HR.
    I strongly disagree with the part of; a strike out is no worse than an out from a ball put in play. A ball in play can move a player over, even if it is an out….a SO, not so much.
    As for Mickey and his SOs, for the first 14 years he also had a BA of .314, a triple-Crown and a ton of HRs.
    I don’t count his last few years, he was playing hurt, I don’t mean Jeter hurt (not counting his last injury) a little foot bruse…or even a big one.
    Give me a guy that will give me .300+ BA, 20 HR’s and if possible speed and I’ll take it over 40HRs and BA of .225+/- with 30% SO’s, every time.

    • Ken you need to look at more than just BA. A stat that counts an infield single the same as a HR is flawed. There are just to many factors the stat does not cover. W/OBA, OPS, OBP. and Slug % are all much more valubale stats in evaluating hitters but people just like the simple math.

      • Matthew B….
        You are right but, I use the BA so as to make it understandable for everyone, some fans have no idea what W/OBA, OPS, OBP. and Slug % are, let alone understand them. A walk has very little to do with moving a runner over but it is counted in the OBP.
        I apologize for not getting into the nuts and bolts but, to be honest I hate stats, I use them when I have to…most of them are too arbitrary for me.

        • Hate stats? The museum of natural history just called……all dinosaurs have to be back by 10pm tonight.

          • Tommy Terminix……………..You are close to being put on my ‘Do Not Call List’! …Ken can take care of himself, and does not need me…………..but, brother, you are an ass!

    • Kenny…..good evening. Don’t get mad at me, I’ll talk baseball in a bit…I have to get warmed up. A question for you….When you grew up in Hells Kitchen, do you remember drinking a product called….”Salhaptica?”….I thought of this, while walking on the beach today. Really.

      • No I don’t remember drinking it but, remember hearing of it. Was it a laxative or something like Pepto, I’m not sure. Bigger question is, why would I get mad at you for asking me a question?

    • Ken I agree, its HYSTERICAL to hear people trying to defend Tex, Grandy, etc by pulling up a convenient stat.
      The proof is in the team itself. The 2009 team had great batting average hitters, they won a title.
      Hows the all or nothing, “OBP” team looked the last three years in the playoffs? Not so good huh?
      Basehits win games.

      • No scoring runs wins games …if you do it with 2 hits or a walk and a hit it still counts evenly. With Grandy battin second you wanted him tonget on base …henfailednwhen his OBP droppednto .320 …he exceeded and led the league in runs when he hadna .360 plus.

        The Yankees this year were second in runs by a mere 4 runs with the highest OBP.

        They lost in the playoffs because Detroit’s shut them down….simple.

        • oh sure, Detroit shut them down last year too, and Texas the year before. Of course neither of the last two teams who “shut them down” were good enough to win the WS and this Tiger team won’t either.
          What “shut them down” were a bunch of guys who can’t hit for average, exactly as I predicted before the season began.
          How many runs have been “walked in” in the WS so far? None, thats how many.
          We all know walks can turn into runs, but 95% of the time they turn into runs because of hits, sac flies, errors, and ground balls, not subsequent walks.

  21. Of course Ken, that’s obvious…..but Stop using BA as a metric …it’s all about OBP now. BA went out with bell bottoms, geritol and bad toupees.

    As far as K is an out like any other out , has been proven statistically by sabermetricians. I’d explain it to you but you would fall asleep 2 minutes in.

    • Right on Twasp

      • Right on Twasp?
        I am sorry but, there is no way in hell I (as a coach) would accept a SO. in place of a fly ball to RF or ground out to 2nd with a man on 2nd base and no outs or one out even. I don’t care what the stats show.
        Of course, I have been known to be a crazy old man, that knows next to nothing.
        Anyhow, it is my opinion, not those that use sabermetrics! LOL

        • This conversation is over your head Ken. everyone knows those outs are better than a strikeout THAT’S NOT THE POINT!

          • Tommy-Gun…There is no point!….What Ken meant, was because A-Rods power hand is his right hand. [some say the left, but they are wrong]….Anyway, it results in a lack of thrust, resulting in strike outs! The T=OBA %…or, Thrust equals, times at bat.

        • Kenny…..I can read the writing on the wall. I am on your ‘Do Not Call List’………………….right?
          Maybe your words read true…” Of course, I have been known to be a crazy old man, that knows next to nothing.”…..it was the Salhaptica question, right? Did they select you, to test try it? Did you fail the testing?……………

      • Could you guys hive me all the examples of a runner moving from first to third on a walk this year? Scoring from 2nd base on a walk?
        Oh, that’s right, it never happens.
        Sorry, common sense tells you that hits are more valuable than walks. Always have been, always will be in the land of reality.
        As far as strikeouts go, NOTHING good ever happens from a strikeout.
        A ground ball can score a runner or move one over. An easy flyball to centerfield can score a runner or move one over. A FOUL ball can score a runner or move one over. An easy flyball or grounder can turn into an error, scoring a run or moving one over.
        The only thing a strikeout does is make the most complete and total useless out known to man.
        If you want to worship at the altar of the Teixeira’s and Granderson’s of the world and pretend they are good, be my guest.

    • Tommy Gun….the Cow Girls purse. Good evening. I’m sorry, but in that new dumb logo, you look like the Terminix Man, going postal. Fishjam, is the Hit Man….and you are what?…The Bug Man?

  22. Ha ha was that a laxative?

  23. Mike P whyndoesnevery conversation come back to the Tex andnGrandy abuse you took. Was it that bad? Sue YFU for harassment….you arenan abused , employee who is sufferingnfrom PTTS

    Post traumatic trade syndrome.

    • Matt B and Mike D had PLENTY to say to me about my stance on Teixeira and the Grandy trade before this season. LOL!! Just reminding them, thats all!

      • Really? If you really want to do this you said things like Kuroda was an awful signing, it was a bad thing Andy Pettitte was coming back at the end of the year, Matt Moore would win the Cy Young, the Red Sox would make the playoffs. We all say things that we are right and wrong when predicting, but most of us aren’t egotistical enough to care.

        • I was wrong about Moore, I was wishy washy about Pettite coming back helping(it sure did). But I wasn’t insistent about those things you list, nor did I ridicule YOU or MIKE or anyone who disagreed with me on those things.
          What do you think of that disease Tex now? Just for the record? LOL!!

          • What do I think? I think he is a top 10 1B in MLB, who if he did not get hurt would have finished with his normal over 30 HR and around 110 RBI and plays gold glove defense. You were also quiet when he hit in the ALDS and his clutch stats for the regular season were the best on the team. .289/.360/.578.938 in high leverage situations. .390/.466./.932/1.398 in late&close games. .285/.370/.646/1.016 in innings 7-9 this season.

            • 1) You said he was top 5 before the season began

              2) You emphasize power with Tex, you were VERY quiet when I pointed out that he has THREE home runs in 150 postseason at bats as a Yankee, to go along with his “gaudy” .196 average as a Yankee in the postseason.

              3) His contract is a killer and we’re stuck with this disease for four more years.

            • for all the small ball you like to talk about Texeira was leading the AL in Sac fly’s when he got hurt as well

              • That’s awesome!! 23.5 mill a year for a guy with three home runs in 150 postseason at bats, whose been a ,250 hitter for three years, BUT who was leading the AL in sac flies before he got hurt(yet again)!
                Matt noone was more excited than I was when the Yankees signed him, but he’s been awful.

                • Yeah the guy playing over 155 games every year he has been here so he must have been getting hurt a lot before this year. Sorry I dont consider players who hit 35 HR with 110 RBI a year and play gold glove defense awful. It is not my definition of awful, if it is yours than so be it and we are going to agree to disagree.

                  • Come on guys …stop arguing….Tex has been very good during the season and not that good during the playoffs. He is what he is. 30/100 great defense and has choked somewhat in the playoffs so far.,..

                    And His numbers have been trending down at a fairly early age.

                    • Describing a guy as “not that good” and “has choked somewhat” who has had 150 postseason at bats as a Yankee and is batting .196 with only 3 home runs is a joke.
                      Its far beyond “not that good” I would say.
                      He’s a disgrace to the uniform every time he puts it on in the postseason. For all of the talk about others on this team who supposedly “couldn’t handle the pressure of NY” this clown takes the cake. His batting average and OBP take a 50 point nosedive over his lifetime numbers prior to coming to NY and in the postseason he tosses up numbers like that?
                      150 postseason at bats is no small sample size either. That’s plenty of at bats against different teams and pitchers in four different postseasons over 8 different postseason series.
                      Anyone ripping ARod and downplaying Tex’s DISGUSTING postseason play is simply not telling it like it is.

                    • Certainly a goodnpoint MONEYP. Why rip only Arod whennTejx has notbcarried his weight in the playoffs. Also why rip Tex only when Arod has been awful in most of his playoffs? Rip then both equally!

  24. It’s a common thread in all your posts…..all conversations, debates, analysis, lead back to which theory supports your position on the trades. It’s hysterical. Lol.

  25. Save all cursing fornCashman :-)

  26. the post seems to ignore the rather obvious question of who or what replaces ARod….he’s still an above average hitter and third baseman and the Yankees don’t a have another right-handed power hitter or better fielder at the position. you don’t dump a guy that you’re still going to pay for and who still does the job without having a better alternative.

    the old political saying goes “you can’t beat someone with no one” so unless fishjam has an answer to what replaces Rodriguez, the post is not so good.

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